Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. Having had much shade thrown our way in the early 80s because our oldest son was into alcohol and drugs, we decided to start a support group called Parents Concerned This was in Silicon Valley. obituary "R.C. Thanks! Sproul Jr. didnt hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I did go back to my faith family. You got it dead wrong. God have mercy. Velour wrote: I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. His ethanol-fueled rant in the back seat of that cop car got described as Instant A-hole; Just Add Alcohol.. I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. Here is psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert Steve Hassan explaining The key part to what Deborah added was the addict has to want to be helped., Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?). The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people. I think we can do better though. I dont think we can assume that a person not mentioning getting treatment in a blog post means they dont believe in people getting treatment. Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female I was about to defend you, until I saw the word livers in there. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? Do they criticize non-drinkers? I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! Anyway. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. She told H.U.G. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was?. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. Sproul, Jr.s adult children. He was a success story. She did not show that she had no clue. RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. This is precisely where most churches will fall flat on their faces with alkies. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or Maybe these two guys were separated at birth. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. I knew theyd made a typo and I found it a rather amusing typo which is why I took it further by pointing out that RC Jr needs to be born again (which entails being washed in the blood of Christ.). I said on my blog that the TOPIC itself was banned, which I find detrimental to women who are in abusive relationships (whether marriage, friendship, at work, etc). Sproul, Jr. has a new book coming out, published by Ichthus Publications (what were they thinking???). RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. Best to ignore the barbs. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. But with my Christian friends and family I am often second guessed. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. I think you are misunderstanding me. Everyone here is pro-help for alcoholics, everyone here thinks that compassion is right. Its a multi-pronged approach to dealing with an alcoholic. Im talking about the loss of time with real friends who are still my friends. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. Verse 1 in that chapter is very special to me, as it addresses the right way to approach a professed brother who is living in disobedience to God. This blog should be the last place to be unsafe though. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] Our sin is as sinful as is his. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the crucifixion. Sproul is with the Lord now. Mae wrote: In very pious terms of course. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; Jun. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Yes, give Sproul Jr. the right opportunities to get well. @ okrapod: Those that saw the issues, which were primarily with the entrepreneurial head pastor, minimized them and advised me to hang in there and focus on my small group fellowship. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. I hope it is true. Heres where we seem to fundamentally agree: After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? Thank you. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: Thats why a Guild Navigator is indispensable when folding space. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. But R.C. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? Our records show Robert Charles Sproul (83) as possible relative. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. From the church folks, I knew, it was dont bother us for the most part. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. 2. It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? Its a sad world sometimes. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. They also throw in the slander term. That being said I think the far more important issue is figuring out some ways of keeping the public safe from him. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. RC Sproul Sr was, at least in RC Jrs formative years, a heavy smoker and drinker and set the example for his son. as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. ), Mae wrote: His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. Some people view CR as just a Christian version of AA because it was founded by an AA leader. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. As soon as a young person who is telling me about an addicted parent & their behaviour finds out Ive been there the sense of relief for them is overwhelming as it means I KNOW, & that their constant embarrassment & humiliation is no stranger to me. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. Perhaps you need some help as a family member of people who were alcoholics, so that you can find some people to talk to? The lady in the story died of alcoholism. Much easier to see when you are out of bubble like this. Here is a link: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Some of us do know him, and some of us knew him far longer than you have. Granted, some of the help I found in my research was written by other M.H.P.s, but I had to find their material on my own and figure out if, when, and how to apply it to myself. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. You have taken this quote out of context . He said that his wife Rachelle said it. I agree with all of this but people also need to stop supporting abusive churches. All people do. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. Velour wrote: As for Presbyterian oversight his denomination defrocked him in 2006. i was in costa mesa last week end. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. I didnt know he was a dry alcoholic. Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. I was always scared stiff riding with him, literally praying all the way home, and I didnt even know the Lord then. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Plenty of people who are Christians still have serious medical problem and still need medical care and other care. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. In fact, in my post there last Monday I express outrage about how PCA churches are often excommunicating victims of domestic abuse for divorcing their abusers. Sopy (So sorry for your terrible experience Dee). You have a good heart. Hi Julie Anne, From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. im sorry this is happening, dee. There are many Christians who lurk here who struggle with addictions. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. What you experienced wasnt Matthew 18 church discipline. Yes, they can be a big help but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Not born again huh? Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. These need help. An alcoholic likewise has little or no control over his drinking by definition. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. Your post seems not to understand this, but if I have misinterpreted you, please correct me. Yet while Scripture condemns drunkenness, it nowhere says that consuming strong drink is in itself evil. having some things to answer for. Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. Having debunked this mythical correlation could everyone just stop speaking as though there is one? God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! My mother would ask me the same question over and over. So, his alcoholism caught up with him. I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. Some never recover, some fully recover- but all live with the result of where they are and how they got there one way or another. No one knows where an alcoholics bottom is and what finally makes that person raise the flag of surrender for help. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. During that time, I would have a half glass of wine each evening which dulled the discomfort. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. I was on the road when it hit, Loma Prieta, things collapsing the road buckling and our house was thrashed though we did not know it until it sold a few years later during the inspection while selling it and we took a big loss on it; Foundational and chimney issues. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. She is a white, not hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County. Or at least Ligonier Ministries. Sprowl Funeral Sprowl Funeral and Cremation Care is compassionately serving the family of Richard Mark Williams, 48, who passed away on February 20, 2023. Yes, the pain is awful. . As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. To answer your question, I would feel the same way if it were my ex-NeoCalvinist pastor who was caught doing the same thing Sproul 2 has done. Every case is different. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. And we explain why we think that word is an inappropriate and unhelpful when talking about domestic abuse. an invitation to share his/her story. I reacted too strongly to some things you said. Pain is no fun and draining. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee), wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. and me. I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. I mentioned in a post on there that your blog (among a few other ones Ive seen) either ban the use of the word or topic of Codependency, or make the incorrect claim that it is victim blaming.. with R.C. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. I was home alone. That night, he was literally set free 30 years later, I still communicate with him he is not the alcoholic he feared he would become. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. It certainly was not just a church thing, it was a cultural thing. 3. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. Its absolutely inexcusable. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. I am NOT saying that the oppressed one does NOT need attention and HELP!!! This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. What's especially remarkable about this case, and therefore makes it even more newsworthy, is that RC Sproul Jr is a well-known and very public spokesman for the Pro-Life movement. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? In my professional life I both treat and work integratively healing disease with nutritional therapies- including those who have undergone transplants due to chronic substance abuse. And yes, Dark Ages applies to how the church mishandled each one of these situations. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. That is also comparing apples to oranges. Finally? Heres just one example of his cult-like practices. We want it to be exposed, but we must be careful, have sources checked, etc. 3. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on 14th December 2017. Its not your quote. According to Ligonier Ministries: Dr. R.C. I needed that sort of help. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. The old playing the gossip card. I could have had my mother die at home like she begged and that is a sin I will never forgive myself for. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. And One Hand Washes the Other. "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" R.C. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. Lets discusshymens. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. I did a poor job of hearing you through all your pain, a pain which is very genuine and proper considering all the terrible things youve likely been through. We know each others positions. Apologies for hitting to soon and posting. For a while he literally slept out in the reeds by a river. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. It is always a pleasure to read her advice on legal/medical/mental matters, as her experience clearly shows. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. Time to get specific. It certainly was not just a church thing, it was a cultural thing. The last time their PCP prescribed a pain killer without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems with the med did you notice? Velour wrote: My Comment was Deleted Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. 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Meantime, here is the link: http: //www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/ does not need and.
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